Spot in Kevin, if you’re hearts not in it, then what’s the point. Some people just find it hard to understand why you’d want to play an amateur sport for nothing rather than a professional one for mega bucks. Shane Supple is a perfect example.

Some would say you must be insane to go to the other side of the world to take up a sport at 19 that you have never played before but there you go.

“They” don’t want anything and never asked for it. This arrangement was lobbied for by the GPA, independently of “them”.

Yes, let’s give money to Modern Pentathlon instead, an open, inclusive and non elitist sport that attracts mass participation and support.

And why did the GPA lobby for it? Because the GAA wouldn’t pay.
Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.

Screw it, I can go modern pentathlon training instead now 3 nights a week. Brilliant, and my local club is currently doing a canvass for participants.
Modern pentathlon, the Team game to play with lifelong friends.

My hole.

Gimme the Hurley or the football

Sound.

Pardon my scorn.

3 nights a week? Well, I suppose you could take it easy and just do it for fun like that, but you won’t be able to keep up with the top level athletes in the sport. But hey, that’s not what everyone wants I guess…

BTW – hurley and football popular? Maybe to watch, but not to actually take part in, not according to the actual data. The Irish Sports Monitor report 2011, which interviews several thousand people for the Irish Sports Council, whose money the GAA is going for, shows that running, cycling, swimming, dancing, golf, soccer and even yoga are all more popular than football or hurling – and not by a slim margin, and not just this year. And as for attendance figures and people watching, I think rugby and soccer probably win out, but we’d need actual data to be sure.

So basicly, the GAA could pay more money to the players than the ISC, without having to touch a penny of core spending on sport – in other words, without the clubs or anyone else feeling a pinch – but they won’t and they think it should come from the same pot that funds small sports… even though the GAA isn’t the most popular sport in the country by a wide margin according to the ISC’s own figures.

There’s a few words that descibe thinking like that quite succintly but they’re a bit rude…

I wonder where more people spend time, GAA or Modern Pentathlon? as for most popular? I never said that. Put that in your succinct pipe and puff on it.

They lobbied for it because professional sports people in this country are given significant tax breaks from the state and the GPA felt that inter county players should receive something in lieu of this as they obviously didn’t benefit from these breaks.

So responsibility for this has nothing to do with the GAA. This is, and always has been, a state matter.

I don’t actually agree with the grants myself but that isn’t the issue and these are the facts.

You might be advised to educate yourself about matters in future before you go off on an ill informed rant. It makes you look foolish.

Paul, what’s that GAA rule on professionalism again?
Like I said, don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining. The GAA could fix this problem today if they so chose; they don’t want to, it lets them spend a million euro on marketing.

Jamie, give MPAI a million euro and see how long your argument holds up. And if all that keeps the GAA as popular as it is (wow, less popular than *Yoga*, eh?) is huge amounts of money while smaller sports bring home international medals in an Olympic sport on less than the interest you’d get from the GAA’s marketing budget if you put it in the bank… well, that’s just not a good investment for the state, now is it?

Hmmm… Do you reckon you’d get 80,000 people at a Yoga final? Or 40-60,000 at a provincial final?30 – 50,000 at a county final? Me neither.
Where were these people surveyed? Just so as there’s no ambiguity, I’m a sports fan, not just GAA, if something promotes competition,good health, socialising, fun, team building I’m all for it.

The GAA is an amateur organisation. They don’t pay for play which is precisely why they have no role in the payment of government grants. They have, however, allowed the players to receive them.

What’s your point? Are you implying that the GAA is breaking it’s amateur ethos by allowing grants to be paid?

That’s another argument but probably one that is invalid. If an artist gets a grant from the government to do a piece of work it doesn’t suddenly make them a professional artist. I would think the same logic applies here.

Jamie, there aren’t 80,000 people playing at a national final. There are 30. Maybe 31 if you count the ref. Maybe a few more if you count subs and linesmen. Everyone else is just shouting.

And you’d get more than 31 in a large yoga class. Or, for that matter, the air rifle nationals or the modern pentathlon nationals – and they’d all be taking part, not just watching.

But if you don’t believe me, go read the data yourself – that’s the great thing about data, you don’t need to trust me, you can just read the raw numbers:

http://www.irishsportscouncil.ie/Media/Latest_News/2012/Irish_Sports_Monitor_2011_Final_Report.pdf

Page 27 is where the popularity figures are. The first few pages explain how the data was gathered.

An amateur organisation that pays over three million euros annually to staff?
Paul, can you smell what you’re shovelling there?

Can you not see what you’re shoveling mark. Fascinating report that I just read it there. So basically people that hop on the bike the odd week, go for a jog or a swim in there local pool are now participating in sport? They’re just keeping active and exercising. Any rational person would see that. And then we have soccer, where soccer is in the majority played in five a side by people who pay no membership to a club and don’t compete competitively. If you don’t believe me look at page 12 of your report where it states by and large that soccer is not an active enough activity in Ireland to be considered a sport by international standards! So we can take it that people who kick a ball around a park tell a phone survey that they play soccer and you swallow it up. The only real indicator is regular membership of clubs and competitive teams. That’s real sports participation (not yoga ffs) in that regard golf is by far Ireland’s most popular sport followed by football then soccer then hurling with rugby languishing well down (20k adult participants only!) I know you hate the gaa from your above posts but try and back your arguments a little better. And as for money paid, the gaa runs Ireland’s most profitable sport and best equipped and largest stadium. Why wouldn’t they pay administrators and coaches to spread their games?

Brian, if the only thing that counts to you is competitive sport, then the GAA loses out again because they’re not in the Olympics. But most people think that’s a bit elitist.

So let’s see – if we look at what people do, the GAA isn’t the most popular sport.
If we look at what people watch, the GAA isn’t the most popular sport.
And if we look at what people can achieve, the GAA isn’t the highest level of achievement possible in sport.

None of that means that it should be shut down – but it does rather put the boot into the idea that it should be allowed to get €900,000 of the ISC’s budget because the GAA doesn’t want to pay its players even though – as you say – it’s highly profitable.

And how many people do you think that attend a county final are actively involved in their local club? I guess 85 – 90%
Or of the 80,000 people that show up for an all Ireland final or semis? Actively involved in local clubs? Most. Your numbers are wrong old stock.

Jamie, you’ve got guesses, I’m reading actual data.

To quote Feynman:
“If it disagrees with experiment, it’s WRONG. … It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is… If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.”

Mark, you’re not worth having a discussion with as you refuse to be reasonable and talk about the facts. The argument I have made with regard to the grants is irrefutable and entirely factual but you refuse to acknowledge that.

You’re not happy with the level of funding certain minority sports get. I don’t agree with you with regard to the examples you’ve raised as the two sports you mentioned are elitist and one isn’t even a sport at all in my opinion.

You also have a chip on your shoulder about the GAA which isn’t surprising given the sports you would appear to prefer. As a result you refuse to recognise that the GAA plays a key role in the heart of every community in the country and is easily the most popular participatory organisation in Ireland. Sure, it has it’s faults but that doesn’t change it’s contribution to the social fabric of the country and it’s entitlement to significant government funding on that basis.

Paul, the actual data doesn’t support what you’re saying. There really isn’t any kind of discussion you can have when the data says you’re wrong, beyond “how do we fix it”. The fact that you’re in denial about the data doesn’t make the data wrong – the data doesn’t care about your opinion, it just is. I didn’t write the report and I didn’t gather the data, but all you’ve done is attack me personally for pointing it out and disagreeing with how funding is allocated to a body that patently doesn’t need it – and you agree that it doesn’t need it and so does the GAA.

Honestly, if this is the kind of argument that supports the GAA getting a grant from the same pot as funds all the smaller sports in Ireland, then that grant needs to be discontinued immediately.

Okay, guesses they may be, however I see several times a week for about ten months a year the exact opposite of what your figures and reports say. Their the only facts I need. I’m not bothered about the politics of the grant system.

That’s called selection bias Jamie.
It’s why you think your guesses are better than actual data, and it’s also why you’re wrong to do so.

Mark, for the last time. The GAA does not get the grant, some of it’s players do. If the grant was not paid by the government the GAA would not pay it so therefore they gain nothing from having it paid.

People saying they go running or go to yoga is not a true indicator of sports participation. The only accurate measure of this is in membership of organised sports clubs and teams. Next thing you’ll be telling me is that gym is a sport. Attendance at sporting events is also a useful guide to the core support that a particular sport has.

Paul, it’d be nice if that was the last time you said it because it’s getting tiresome and nobody really believes it anyway. The GAA has nothing to do with it? Nonsense! The money goes to GAA players, and it’s a GAA rule that they keep citing when asked about pay-to-play, and always has been.

The fact is, if the GAA’s rules about paying players were dropped tomorrow, the whole thing would just go away. The players could be paid more than they’re getting from the ISC now, and the GAA’s sporting endeavours wouldn’t be out a penny. It’s the GAA’s choice to keep that rule that causes this problem; it’s the GAA’s choice to look the other way when someone else pays their players; and it’s the GAA’s choice to not fix the problem.

And as to this idea that you’re in a club or it’s not a sport? Do you really want to go there when arguing about a non-Olympic, non-International sport that outside of Ireland doesn’t really exist? Are you actually saying that elitism is an argument *for* the GAA just because most people in Ireland don’t want to join the local GAA club? It’s an amusing line to take… but it’s hardly grounded in reality or common sense.

I’m not investing anymore in this, a phone survey on activity levels isn’t an indication. It’s an activity level, I walk most days, but I think Rob Heffernan should not worry. Anyhoo, the GAA for all it’s foibles is a very positive influence in communities,I believe.

Yes. That’s exactly what I’m saying. Sport is a competitive pastime, otherwise it’s called exercise. Generally you need to be in a club to compete.

People who go jogging or to yoga or to the gym are not participating in sport. They are exercising or keeping fit.

Unfortunately the lines between the two have been blurred by a dumbing down of what qualifies as sport in recent years. That’s why your report is completely invalid.

And any pastime that requires the use of a horse or a gun is elitist.

So you want elitism… but not too much elitism… just enough elitism to let you in the door but enough to keep the riff-raff out? Is that it Paul?

Mark, you’re arguing about terminology that you don’t even understand. Elitism refers to social accessibility not the level of competition. Sport itself in inherently elitist in competition, that’s the idea.

Though I suppose being a patron of elitist sports it’s not surprising that you would be oblivious to this.

When was the last time someone from a council estate came down to the shooting club or trained for the modern pentathlon? Here’s a hint: never.

Just out of curiousity, Paul, have you ever been to a shooting club? Because the idea that it’s a lot of rich dilettantes has not been my experience (and I’ve hung around a good few.)

Hey Paul, is that data or just more WAGing?
I’ll give you a hint – it’s WAGing.
Most people in the shooting sports aren’t rich or well-off. It’s why the financial support from the ISC is so important. And it’s no more expensive to get into than any other technical sport. Archery has similar costs. So does kayaking, rock climbing, anything that uses technical equipment (which is half the sports out there).

Nick. No, I haven’t. If I’m being unfair then I apologise.

My point stands with regard to Modern Pentathlon though.

With regard to shooting though I personally don’t see the merit in making significant amount of state money available for spending on a pastime that is not broadly popular and offers nothing in the way of health benefits to participants. In addition it helps fund the gun industry and increases the number of guns in circulation which has questionable social benefits. But that’s a whole other issue.

Paul – total number of deaths or injuries from formal target shooting in Ireland since its establishment somewhere prior to 1850 (1850 is the earliest record we have, but it’s of a well-established sport by that point): 0. None. Nada. Nothing. Total number of deaths and injuries from GAA sports? Quite a bit larger than zero for both, even in the past decade, let alone since 1850 (though 1850 might be unfair since the GAA wasn’t established until 1884).

The whole “guns are bad” argument doesn’t hold water when you’re comparing the GAA to two seperate Olympic sports y’know.

Then I guess we disagree on the usefulness of support for minority sports. As a teenager, the only sport I really loved was gymnastics. It’s certainly a minority sport, but it was the only one that I felt passionate about. I really disagree with the idea of pigeon holing children into the most “popular sports” – ignoring, of course, that many children who might love pentathalon or gymnastics HAVE to play GAA because it’s the only sport available. I disagree with your idea that because it’s popular, it requires more government support. Specifically because it is so widely available, it should be self sustaining.

And it’s beyond reaching to claim sports ownership of air rifles “increases the guns in circulation.” These guns are not the guns which are used in crimes.

Mark

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishsportscouncil.ie%2FResearch%2FBallpark_Figures_2008_%2FBallpark_Figures.pdf&ei=ECYuUd3rGMrNhAeGn4GACQ&usg=AFQjCNF32Mj_g2vJt8OBm1ufWpnshYeC-A&sig2=LIAhbHY0GSwzQhrsjjMe3g

Hope that link works. Seeing as it’s data you were looking for, cast your eyes to pages 17-19. It should make interesting reading

Good job ignoring my arguments mark. So Olympic appearance is the sole criteria in determining what’s a sport. I take it rugby, American football, Aussie rules aren’t sports in your book. Gaa is the second most popular sport players wise after golf. Gaa is by a country mile the most popular spectator sport. Seeing that the gaa is a team and community organisation, like many soccer and rugby clubs it makes sense the government fund them as they provide a healthy outlet for people, often the only one in many areas. Filling therefore a gap the government has no clue how to fill. Have you been to France? Tons of pools courts and other facilities for people to play games in. Have you been to rural Ireland? None of the above.
I play golf, Ireland’s most popular sport but I don’t expect the government to help fund my individual pursuit. Similar to your modern pentathlon. I fully expect a team to receive government aid. Your a hopeless debater, and your snobbish comment about the gaa and Olympics shows how our of touch with reality you are. Go down to your local gaa soccer or rugby club. The fresh air and banter among the lads on the team would do wonders for you.

Thanks Robert, that is interesting – but I would make two points regarding it:

1) The data regarding participation in a club environment is out of date by five years and the ISM reports over the last five years show a steady and strong decline in participation in clubs in favour of individual sports (in other words, your report was indeed correct in 2008, but the numbers have since changed);

2) The data regarding attendance at sporting events is also out of date by five years and I would like to see more up to date data from this side of the economic collapse (as that was identified by the ISM reports as the main driver of the changes in how people engage in sport in Ireland over the last five years). I don’t know that the data has changed – but it seems highly likely and I’d like to see current figures.

But the point on volunteerism is well made there — I just don’t think it applies when talking about a grant for inter-county players, and I don’t know whether the GAA has such high volunteerism numbers because it has so many clubs around the country or for some other reason. For example, if you had (say) a rifle range in every small town the way you do in Switzerland, so that the number of clubs was equal and the playing field (so to speak) was level, would you still see more volunteerism in the GAA or would you see it being about the same no matter what the sport was? (I know I’m harping on about the shooting sports here, but they’re the ones I know best).

For example, in the years before the Firearms Acts when shooting was treated as just another sport, we had sixty thousand people watching matches on Dollymount strand and gold medals in the Olympics. If the playing field was level, I’d bet all the money in my pockets against all the money in yours that we’d see the same again; and more – I’d bet that no matter what sport we chose, if we levelled the playing field in the same way, we’d see the same kind of parity between that sport and the GAA. I don’t think the GAA is any more or any less worthy as a sport – there’s no secret sauce here, they’ve just had better luck historically than others.

Hi Brian,
No, it isn’t – and it wasn’t me who was arguing for elitism, it was Paul. Who was trying to argue that the seven sports more popular than the GAA according to the Irish Sports Council’s research (including golf) were “not real sports” because they weren’t in a club environment and weren’t competitive.

I was actually arguing that that wasn’t a valid argument because (a) being competitive in a club environment isn’t what defines a sport; and (b) if you did accept that competitiveness was needed, then the GAA would still not be more worthy than other sports because it’s restricted to this little island and doesn’t really go beyond it; while smaller sports do. And that does count when you’re making competitiveness your metric – as much as we like to write about them in the press, the simple statistical fact is that to be the best GAA player around you only have to be the best out of four million or so people; to be the best (say) runner around, you have to be the best out of almost seven billion people.

So frankly, I was arguing against a metric that the GAA doesn’t do well in; and the pro-GAA posters here were arguing for that metric. Which was a bit confusing, but there you go.

Also, I’m not ignorant of what sport is like in rural Ireland – I’m from Kerry originally and my shooting club is out in the middle of nowhere in Meath. Shooting is a rural sport, by and large – we have only one range in the cities in the entire country (you try opening one in a city sometime, it’s remarkable how fast the torches and pitchforks come out…)

Is that you jerry?? The criteria is being the best in the world? We actually have no athletes in that category so should we pull all athletics funding as all provided so far has apparently been useless. It’s about competitiveness. That’s sport. I went for a cycle the last day. I don’t think that I could claim to compete in the sport of cycling. If I took part in an organised race. Then I would. You earlier stated Olympic participation is the sole criteria to be considered a sport. You wrote it above. Surely you will now admit that’s ridiculous. I have nothing against shooting. But your not going to have a few hundred youngsters out shooting in a particular community on a weekend morning. They’ll be on their gaa pitch though. That’s not luck that’s hard work and pride in the sports. Yoga, jogging, cycling on your own. These are not sports but no one wants to admit they don’t participate in any sport.

Brian, now you’re just arguing with what you wish I had said. I can’t help you with that, except by typing Lorem Ipsum over and over again.

The facts are that the GAA:
- is not the most popular sport in Ireland today
- is not the most competitive sport in Ireland today
- is highly profitable

and therefor the GAA does not need and should not receive the ISC’s funding.

That’s it. There’s nothing in there saying it’s not a sport, but you’d like there to be because that’d be easier to argue against.

(btw, we can directly compare shooting and gaa numbers the day that either we adopt the same firearms regulations as the rest of the EU; or we require all hurley owners to have licences; but even before that day, we punch much further above our weight than the GAA do)

Yes golf is more popular due to its age profile. Second isnt bad. You’ll be delighted to hear the gaa isn’t receiving any grants from the isc. The players do. So which sport is more competitive in Ireland? And you said about four hours ago in response to my comment, that because gaa is not an Olympic sport it’s not a sport. Then tried and excuse it as a bit elitist?

Brian, again, that’s not what I said – and what I said is up there in black and white for you to read if you want to, instead of making stuff up:

if the only thing that counts to you is competitive sport, then the GAA loses out again because they’re not in the Olympics. But most people think that’s a bit elitist.
…
None of that means that it should be shut down – but it does rather put the boot into the idea that it should be allowed to get €900,000 of the ISC’s budget because the GAA doesn’t want to pay its players even though – as you say – it’s highly profitable.

And again, as to the whole “oh, the grant has nothing to do with the GAA” line, please give over. We weren’t born yesterday. If you cause the problem and you could fix the problem overnight, you don’t get to disavow the problem.

Your first paragraph states that Olympic participation is necessary for competitive sport does it not? If not how does the gaa lose out? It’ll survive just fine if the grants are removed. Many members would be fully against grants. And again what’s a more competitive sport in Ireland than the gaa championships? You said it wasn’t the most competitive?

I enjoy watching GAA as much as the next person, but the arguement that the ISC is only indirectly supporting it by supporting the players is not your strongest one. It’s certainly an indirect payment.

No Brian, it does not. It was said in response to your elitist comment that

The only real indicator is regular membership of clubs and competitive teams. That’s real sports participation

Now look, I can understand you wanting to argue with what you wish I’d said, but when you start forgetting what your own argument is, then it’s just getting silly.

I mean, here’s me arguing for quite a while now that the GAA could fund the players without having to touch a penny of core sporting funding, and you’re arguing against that by saying that the GAA would “survive just fine if the grants are removed” and more, here’s me saying that the grant shouldn’t be given and here’s you arguing that “Many members would be fully against grants”. I mean, traditionally at least, an argument has two people on opposing sides, does it not?

As to what’s more competitive than a GAA championships, well, any international sport at all. Four million in one potential pool of competitors; seven billion in the other potential pool. It’s just a matter of fairly basic statistics. You might not like that; but that doesn’t change it.

Nick, I have no problem with minority sports receiving funding. My attitude is that people should decide what sports they want to do and the subsequent sate funding should reflect that. You don’t seem to agree and I see your point but on balance I don’t agree with it.

Mark, you have a chip on your shoulder and refuse to recognise any valid points that other people make. People can disagree but still respect valid points that the other person makes. You are clearly incapable of debate.

You are also completely wrong about the player grants. They were negotiated between the GPA and the government and the GAA played no role in this. What’s more they were adamant that they wouldn’t make any contribution as the amateur ethos would be compromised if they did. Your repeated statements about how the GAA should simply take over payment of these are ridiculous and displays an utter disregard for a core aspect of the organisation. Professionalism is not an option for the GAA as the market here is too small to support that. In addition, most GAA people are against the idea as professionalism has corrupted every sport that has gone that way.

I had originally thought that you were just on a wind up but it’s clear now that you are just a very ignorant individual. I won’t be debating with you any more beyond this as it’s a complete waste of time.

Lots of kids go to the UK to try and make it in soccer. A most dont make it either and most of it is not down to fitness.

Or maybe just not good enough to play an unfamiliar sport to a professional level?

Plenty of lads have went over and got games, they wouldn’t have been put into games if they weren’t u to it physically. They just weren’t good enough

True indeed it’s usually home sickness I.e. family friends girlfriend boyfriend

Too intense Drinking “bonding” sessions maybe.
But not that they’re not as a tough as the Aussies.

Anyone read Paul Mersons book? He mentions about the fittest player he ever came across while at Arsenal. It was a young lad from Ireland who was there for trials, Graham Geraghty.

Marist 59- dont think you would be much fitter if we’re getting into the process of calling people out here!

as opposed to what other intellectually gifted nation?

The Irish team may lack in strength against the Aussies but are never lacking in fitness so his comments aren’t far off the mark.

Well I’d agree if you had said that he wouldn’t know much about the game itself but having spent two months training with the team I’d imagine he has a fair idea what the fitness levels are like.

Eoin B could you repeat that in English or Irish?